[Jody]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum, and apologize in advance if there are some "first post/introduction/etc.." rules i didn't catch, but I need some advice from the experts.
I have a Dodge Omni GLH with a turbocharged 2.2L 4cylinder I have been racing and playing with since 1995. I am using a T04B Super-V with a .63 A/R turbine and stage 2 wheel that i bought from turbonetics back in '97. First, i must applaud you guys for the fantastic workmanship. I've abused it constantly for 11 years now and still haven't killed it. The thing has brutal response, and makes good power given the handicap of the restrictive 2-valve head.
I have moved recently and lost my old catalog that had a Super-V compressor map, and was wondering if you could post one or email me a copy? Not the v1/v2 (i've already searched) , but the super-v.
The cylinder head and intake manifold choices on on these engines (2.2/2.5 chrysler) are limited in number and are all quite restrictive (though the factory bottom end is bomb-proof). The problem is these engines require serious pressure to make any kind of respectable power,
and i'm wondering how much more the little super-v is capable of supporting?
With the current combination it makes (dynojet whp) 247 hp / 260tq at 15 psi, and 356 hp/ 389 tq at 30psi. It would have made close to 375hp at 30psi judging from the power curves at lower pressure, but it was laying down at high rpm at the higher pressures. I'm thinking it's a valvespring issue, but want to be sure i'm not running off the map and choking it. In my ~2000 lb Omni 30psi equals 7.34@100mph in the 1/8 mile with a 1.76 60ft.
I have a couple hundred dyno runs on various combinations in my omni from over the years. What is your rule of thumb for converting dynojet SAE corrected whp (with fwd and a 5spd) to a usable number for plotting airflow on a (lbs/min) compressor map? I understand any airflow calculation is not "absolute" given the need to fudge for cam timing, inlet restrictions, intercooler efficiency and restriction, turbine inlet pressure and efficiency, on,and on, and on..... But, what gives us a reasonable guesstimate for a conversion/calculation?
i've been considering a t04e Super-50 as a replacement if the super V
is out of airflow/pressure but it seems the super 50 is only good for 35-38psi before it runs off the top of the map. right?
If i need to upgrade i would like to make it worth the time/money. If the trend in power continues it will be capable of ~475-500 whp at 45psi. Short of a compound system, what would you suggest? Are there any of your "turbodiesel" turbo upgrades that can be configured with a small enough turbine to be workable on a small displacement 4cyl?
Sorry for writing a book

Jody

[Robert]

I'll have to see if I can get my hands on the Super V compressor map. I've never seen one personally but i'm sure someone has it. Here's a link to a more current catalog that if nothing else has power numbers for each of the units available today:

http://turboneticsownersclub.com/turbos/TNcat1.pdf

As for mass flow I use the mass flow specifc calculation corrected for the flow rate with presure to plot compressor charts.

CFM = L x RPM x VE x Pr / 5660

Where L = engine capacity in liters
RPM = maximum engine speed (we'll adjust this later)
VE = engine volumetric efficiency. From A. Graham Bell's book Forced Induction Performance Tuning some good values for VE are:
Stock 2-valve = 85%
Stock 4-valve = 90%
Street modified = 93%
Competition = 105%
Pr = pressure ratio

On the subject of upgrades you have to remember that although the heads may be restrictive the mass flow of the compressor on a larger compressor wheel is going to be higher per pound of positive pressure. So restrictive heads or not a Super V at 30 PSi may flow (completely arbitrary numbers here) 30 lb/min. A larger compressor like the GT-K61 compressor wheel may flow 60 lb/min at the same pressure ratio. Now granted yes the heads are going to hold you back but I don't think you are going to need 45 PSI on a T04E 50 trim to make the same power numbers. If you do then you should seriously consider head work.

[Jody]

Thanks for the help. The old catalog i had included the super-S, H, and V compressor maps. They don't appear in the newer catalogs for some reason.???

My thought was to obtain a compressor map, and try to get an idea of where it is on the map.

At 30 psi of manifold pressure, and 2psi pressure drop across the intercooler, (never measured inlet restriction-big K&n cone), id get 32psi total or 3.18 pressure ratio.

It makes 296whp at 4000rpm when it achieves full boost , and rolls over after it makes 356whp at 5500rpm, although it should follow through to ~375whp at ~6200 if it would continue the power curve as it did at lower pressure.

So dealing with a working range of 296-375 dynojet WHP, we'd convert to a range of ~ 330-435 crankshaft hp (guesstimating a conversion of 1.15).

(Given it takes about 10lb/min of airflow to make 100 crankshaft hp) A range of about 33-43.5 lbs/min at a pressure ratio of roughly 3.18. Sound like reasonable math to you?

On the T04E Super-50 upgrade idea, plotting my guesstimates from the current combination on it's map- it appears to be a good match for the engine. And if it ends up in a more efficient part of its map compared to the super-v, it will probably make more power at the same pressure ratio. My problem with it is that the pressure ratio is limited to ~36-39psi (126077 rpm) in the airflow range where i will be when i crank the pressure up. Is it safe to run the compressor wheel past the last rpm line on the map??overspeed??

I just want to be sure i don't "upgrade" and get stuck in the same boat i"m in now. The little motor requires serious pressure to make any kind of respectable power. Pressures that would seem obscene to anyone but the cummins-diesel crowd. Doesn't bother me, i just bought a new 0-60psi "blower" gauge to replace my 0-30psi "boost" gauge....LOL

As far as the cylinder head is concerned--- they are that bad. But the results from my engine line up well with the output of similar 2.2/2.5 chrysler enthusiast's combinations. I've done a gasket match and bowl blend on the cylinder head,ported the intake and ex manifolds, and i run a 260 duration/500lift comp turbo-cam. But, it's still a complete and total crap design. However, the bottom end is bullet-proof. Factory junkyard parts in mine.

Thanks for the speedy help/advice/reply. I sure would love to see that super-v map again before you sell me on a new turbo though.

Jody

[Deeds Performance]

This is the best map that you will get for that compressor wheel.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Jody

Thanks for the help. The old catalog i had included the super-S, H, and V compressor maps. They don't appear in the newer catalogs for some reason.???

My thought was to obtain a compressor map, and try to get an idea of where it is on the map.

At 30 psi of manifold pressure, and 2psi pressure drop across the intercooler, (never measured inlet restriction-big K&n cone), id get 32psi total or 3.18 pressure ratio.

It makes 296whp at 4000rpm when it achieves full boost , and rolls over after it makes 356whp at 5500rpm, although it should follow through to ~375whp at ~6200 if it would continue the power curve as it did at lower pressure.

So dealing with a working range of 296-375 dynojet WHP, we'd convert to a range of ~ 330-435 crankshaft hp (guesstimating a conversion of 1.15).

(Given it takes about 10lb/min of airflow to make 100 crankshaft hp) A range of about 33-43.5 lbs/min at a pressure ratio of roughly 3.18. Sound like reasonable math to you?

On the T04E Super-50 upgrade idea, plotting my guesstimates from the current combination on it's map- it appears to be a good match for the engine. And if it ends up in a more efficient part of its map compared to the super-v, it will probably make more power at the same pressure ratio. My problem with it is that the pressure ratio is limited to ~36-39psi (126077 rpm) in the airflow range where i will be when i crank the pressure up. Is it safe to run the compressor wheel past the last rpm line on the map??overspeed??

I just want to be sure i don't "upgrade" and get stuck in the same boat i"m in now. The little motor requires serious pressure to make any kind of respectable power. Pressures that would seem obscene to anyone but the cummins-diesel crowd. Doesn't bother me, i just bought a new 0-60psi "blower" gauge to replace my 0-30psi "boost" gauge....LOL

As far as the cylinder head is concerned--- they are that bad. But the results from my engine line up well with the output of similar 2.2/2.5 chrysler enthusiast's combinations. I've done a gasket match and bowl blend on the cylinder head,ported the intake and ex manifolds, and i run a 260 duration/500lift comp turbo-cam. But, it's still a complete and total crap design. However, the bottom end is bullet-proof. Factory junyard parts in mine.

Thanks for the speedy help/advice/reply. I sure would love to see that super-v map again before you sell me on a new turbo though.

Jody

Still trying to find that map. I'll post it as soon as I find it though.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Deeds Performance

This is the best map that you will get for that compressor wheel.

There you go. BTW Deeds Performance on this board used to work for Turbonetics in the tech sales group.

[Jody]

thanks Robert and Deeds Performance , but the link doesn't work

I sent you guys pm's

thanks,

Jody

[B_Real45]

Jody,

Look for over 400whp, I would recommend a T04E 57trim. What is your redline? I would suggest upping the exhaust wheel to a stage 3. This turbo won't spool much slower than your current turbo - imho it has a much better wheel and housing.

Some examples:
Hondas with 1.8L (non Vtec) with a T04E 57trim / .63 A/R Stage 3 make about 400whp at 20-25psi (but they have excellent flowing heads).

Neon SRT-4's with a 2.4L can make 400-450whp at 20-25psi (and much more tq than the Hondas) at a lower redline - around 6000-6500rpm.

I think on your 2.2L you should be capable of 400whp with a 57trim at less than 30psi.